Comment to Religious Isolationism and Pearl Harbor

Mark Tooley's article at American Spectator on1930's pacificism is offered up as a backdrop to the 1941 Pearl Harbor event. My take follows:

Mark30339| 12.8.11 @ 9:25AM

There is no doubt that the Sermon on the Mount precepts on non-violent confrontation with evil are difficult to apply when two of the largest economies in the world (i.e. Japan and Germany) orchestrate systems of confiscation, displacement, torture and death on millions of people.

One of the most serenely Christian men we have ever known, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, had inside knowledge of the horrors inflicted by the German SS in Poland and elsewhere and aligned himself with the efforts to kill Hitler. Yet he considered this decision to be a profound human failing and clearly understood it risked his own salvation, and correctly so.

A most interesting aspect of Bonhoeffer's life is his escape to the US just before 1939. After arriving, he was troubled by the shallowness of leading protestant communities here -- to him, the only bright spots were negro churches where he sensed a profound faith in Christ. He chose to reject offers to teach in the US and returned to resistance work in Germany.

It is disappointing that 1930's Americans had so little compassion and understanding for the crimes committed against the Chinese, the Poles and the Jews. It was not until the attack of a legitimate military target, Pearl Harbor, that Americans chose to confront Germany and Japan with military force.

The saddest effort of all, however, was the unsolicited bid by Chamberlain to make peace with Hitler in 1936. At that time, resistance to Hitler in Germany was profound, and overwhelming majorities opposed any return to armed conflict. The resistance was ready to use Hitler's eminent call to war in 1936 to depose him. When Chamberlain butted in and GAVE Hitler territory, it irrevocably raised Hitler's stature in Germany and gutted the resistance movement.

Christ does not call us to pacifism. He calls us to CONFRONT evil -- but to do so without violence (and at the risk of own lives). Appeasement and enablement of evil is not a virtue, Christian or otherwise.

Further, military force is not per se wrong. The fact that we stationed troops in Japan, South Korea and West Germany protected communities from radical elements and nurtured great societies there. But on the other end of the spectrum, using robotic planes to blow up residential neighborhoods is seriously flawed -- especially when our supposedly Christian nation fails to mourn the loss of life and acknowledge the tactics as a human failing.

Perhaps the best example of non-violent confrontation rooted in Christ is the 50 years of suffering in Poland to resist totalitarianism. A bloodless collapse of the entire Soviet Union was the result. And that is the challenge Jesus Christ gives us, can our love of the other as a creation of God be so profound, that we will persevere in absorbing the violence rather than propagating it. It is understandable that there may be circumstances when humans fall short of this standard, but let us not delude ourselves into being proud of those moments.

Patheos.com: A Humanist on Catholic Leadership

Comment to Catholic Leadership Needs a New Focus

Wow. In 7 paragraphs you've elected to so completely shred Rome that one wonders how it lasted 2 years, let alone 2,000. I think there is profound hurt among many existing and lapsed Catholics, and I would agree that the institution does too little to heal those hurts. Yet the complaints you raise today would find no support a few decades earlier -- in 1950 most, if not all, prominent Christian denominations would have the same posture concerning birth control, abortion, sex outside of marriage, and female ordination. Just how did people get by for those 19 centuries under these seemingly oppressive false norms?

Your implication is that we in the 21st century are the first generations to be afforded far more liberal and enlightened standards -- yet we tend to be indulgent, self-absorbed people who are readily crippled by our own psyches. Perhaps this sense of rightful repudiation of old standards makes it more difficult to humbly discern our individual brokenness. There must have been some wisdom to the old traditions that call us to be open to life, and to be profoundly respectful of sexual union. Is it so difficult to simply confess our times of indulging in behavior that was less than ideal, and to disclose what conditions pulled us into those behaviors -- and to do so again and again, if necessary?

To me Church authorities can seem flawed and over invested in self preservation and self-aggrandisement -- but human authority structures are always beset with problems of ego inflation. I don't think we will find one that isn't. At least the Roman Church has acknowledged its problems with child molestation and has vigorously implemented multiple levels of alerts to vastly improve child security. Clearly there are different ways to reconcile oneself to the flaws and failures that are inherent to institutionalized religion. The Protestant Reformation was one, but it proved that new institutions still have the same problems inherent to the old institutions.

My comfort comes from these facts: it is the person of Jesus Christ who refuses to condemn the woman caught in adultery, who urges us to understand why the father celebrates the return of the prodigal son, and who innocently absorbs the terror and shame of crucifixion without calling for holy wars of reprisal. Unfortunately, His Church is a shameful emulator in general -- but it has AMAZING saints on the frontiers. Gandhi was inspired by the Sermon on the Mount to deploy non-violent resistance in India, as was MLK in Dixie -- as was John Paul II in confronting the Polish State as a bishop and later as counselor to the Solidarity movement. And it was Mother Teresa who deployed love of neighbor like so few others have done -- a feminine giant who took no notice of the petty Church factions that want to keep a gal down.

Like the Church, the human race in general is a shameful emulator (with shining exceptions on the frontier). The whole point of us being here in this life is for each of us to set aside our prideful egos and embrace our natural connectedness, to overcome differences, to find more ways to include and fewer ways to exclude, to come to the aid of the needy, to generously apply forgiveness and mercy, and to confront wrongs respectfully and nonviolently. No doubt this is enormously challenging -- but it is the noble calling for which we were created. I will continue this quest, and out of my own free will, I choose also to remain in relationship with Jesus Christ, with the Creator, and even with the Roman Church.

Osama's Kill Squad Story

Former Navy Seal Chuck Pfaffer has released a book which presents the details of the Osama bin Laden killing from the point of view of the US military participants. He says he will not name the participants but reports based on information received from them. The story is here.

The enlightening point he makes is that these assault squads are not kill teams, and that they fire only in self-defense. His information is that Osama was suddenly confronted by the squad, he dove for his rifle, and was shot in the head and chest.

Note however that the CIA Head indicates that a kill authority was present:

On rules of engagement:
BRIAN WILLIAMS: Did the President's order read capture or kill or both or just one of those?
LEON PANETTA: The authorities we have on Bin Laden are to kill him. And that was made clear. But it was also, as part of their rules of engagement, if he suddenly put up his hands and offered to be captured, then-- they would have the opportunity, obviously, to capture him. But that opportunity never developed.

Read more: http://thepage.time.com/2011/05/03/panetta-public-likely-to-see-obl-picture/#ixzz1d3xTb1DD

It is puzzling to me why Osama wasn't shot in the leg and taken alive -- just for the intelligence opportunities. It is also puzzling that the body was not presented for a a thorough and accurate autopsy (so lethal wounds and shooting ranges could be confirmed).

It remains my opinion that Osama should have been taken into custody alive at all costs and incarcerated at Guantanamo for the remainder of his natural life -- not because he deserved it, but because a superpower has the means to stand for something better than cycles of killing. This would have been the perfect opportunity to stop "being at war" because this war posture will continue (and will continue to posture America as a prominent and emulable killer in the world) until the leadership demonstrates otherwise.

Purgatory's Appeal

re:

Purgatory's Appeal

By Patrick O'Hannigan on 7.1.11 @ 6:01AM

RE: Tom Bethell's The Decline of Faith:

Mark30339| 7.2.11 @ 11:28AM

The letters of Paul are quite clear about the folly of a life dedicated to becoming worthy in the presence of God. I think Paul would see our Catholic formulations on a purgatory theory as an extension of this folly -- now we can even dedicate our deaths to becoming worthy in the presence of God.

Yet Paul would embrace the purgatory experience as an ESSENTIAL part of living in the here and now. He had dedicated his life to God by torturing and killing the heretical Jews for Jesus. He realized that mankind is never worthy of God, and that he in particular was utterly repugnant in relation to the Will of God -- yet God's Son still embraced Paul in genuine love. That is the purgatory experience: owning up to your own wretchedness, suspending your self-condemnation, and realizing that the loving Creator God already knew that you would be lost before you were found.

I think the best scriptural foundation for purgatory in the here and now is the Parable of the Prodigal Son. The father allows the son to disrespect him and squander his property -- yet yearns for the day when his lost son will be found. When the son is found, the father's boundless joy is not only a marvel -- it is an ANNOYANCE to the second son, who clearly lives by judgment and relative worthiness. I see the Prodigal's Brother as lost in the Land of Deserve with few prospects for ever being found. If there is such a thing as creating space for God's love, living in the Land of Deserve shrinks that space.

Mr. O'Hannigan, Mr. Bethell, there is no purgatory boot camp where you can successfully separate yourselves from the rest of us and finally become worthy of God. When you are ready to give those egos a rest, perhaps you will sit down and have a cup a coffee with us. We don't bite, and we won't judge.

Rich D| 7.3.11 @ 12:01AM

Where do you get this skubula? There is someway that a mortal can live and/or behave either in the here and now or in some hereafter (Land of Deserve?!) that can limit the love of God?

I am called to judge your works, and your message is a cause for stumbling (skandalizo, skandalon). A man without judgement is certain to fall.

Rich D| 7.3.11 @ 12:05AM

Typo - skubala.

Tony in Central PA| 7.3.11 @ 8:59AM

Great post !
I often think as Christians if we had to explain our faith in a brief, yet powerful story to somebody who knew nothing about it, the story of the Prodigal Son would be the best option. I'd never considered the situation of the older brother as you described it but I will from now on.

Rich D| 7.3.11 @ 11:50PM

What?! That parable is not about either brother! How does the older brother explain the Christian faith?

Tony in Central PA| 7.5.11 @ 9:11PM

You know, this is yet another example of how two people can read the same thing and have a completely different understanding of it.

If I had to explain the Christian faith in a very simple, short, yet entertaining way to somebody who didn't know anything about Christianity or Jesus, I would start with this story. Why ? Because it contains deep, relatable insights into human nature, but more importantly, it offers an image of God ( the Father ) that is true. Christianity reveals God to be a loving Father, not an angry tribal chieftan or a forever - detached impersonal entity. I think there are people who consider themselves Christians, some of them posting right here in this thread, who have a mental image of God very different from the Father in the Prodigal Son story.

Everybody can relate to the older brother if they are or had an older brother. Older brothers tend to be the rule - followers. In the Jewish world of the first century, they were the principle heirs ( a small detail that while not actually written in the Gospel but would have been known to Jesus' listeners ) that makes the story richer still. There are plenty of people who appear to " Do right " but they may not actually be doing it for the right reasons. You can bet the older brother was pretty PO'd when his Father gave his younger brother his share of the inheritance. Seeing him return to his Father's warm welcome was the last straw.

Mark made a good point about Purgatory with respect to the older brother. While the sins of the younger brother were serious, they were obvious to him and everybody else. With the older brother, he may have behaved outwardly upright, but his motivations are more selfish than they appear. The older brother has no interest in forgiving and welcoming his lost brother. The Father gently tells him he loves him and everything that he has belongs to him. But he also tells him the seriousnes of the situation from which his younger brother has been delivered and that they should be joyful. Its easy to imagine that the father was similarly forgiving of the older brother many times.

Jesus reminds us that we must forgive as we have been forgiven, and I think this is what Mark was getting at with his post. In Luke 12:59 Jesus warns about the consequences of being forgiven personally but not forgiving others, " ... I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny ". Catholics understand this as a refernce to Purgatory. It can't be hell, because nobody gets out.

Mark30339| 7.13.11 @ 4:44PM

Tony, what a thoughtful piece. Some of us older brothers actually snap and become prodigal sons. The resulting contempt we have for our selves exposes a lifelong posture of judging, comparing and assessing; Faith had been a quest to be more worthy of God's grace than our brother. When we realize how repugnant we are in relation to the Will of God, we can be like Judas and judge ourselves unworthy of life itself, or we can be like Paul and surrender our unworthy selves to the loving Creator God Who already knew that we would be lost before we were found.

Paul's response is the essential experience, you can call it a purgatory experience, or born again, or transformed by Christ -- but it is ready for us in the here and now. Brazilian Bishop Dom Helder Camara has written about the prodigal son and his brother as follows: "I pray incessantly for the conversion of the prodigal son's brother. Ever in my ear rings the dread warning: the one has awakened from his life of sin; when will the other awaken from his life of virtue?" (1962).

To me the pieces by Bethell and O'Hannigan sound like yearnings by the Prodigal's brother, and so miss the point just like the Pharisees around Jesus. We need to see the illusion of virtue in this life, and not hope for some future purgatory that will somehow make us even more virtuous. We need more followers of Christ who understand His invoking Hosea 6:6 at Matthew 12:7 when He says "I desire mercy, and not sacrifice."

The Decline of Faith

re:

The Decline of Faith

By Tom Bethell from the June 2011 issue

Mark30339| 6.30.11 @ 10:06AM

As Mr. Bethell takes a nostalgic look back to nuns in habits and warnings of eternal damnation from the pulpit, I think an appropriate phrase for then and now is: "Many who belong to God, do not belong to the Church, and many who belong to the Church, do not belong to God. While I agree that the increased comfort of this age may contribute to increasing detachment from religious faith -- I think the real culprit is the obsessive focus on the ego-centric self. What I know, what I think, what I have, what I want, what I do, what I feel, what I say -- these matters have crowded out all others. And who can blame us, given the inundation of media that compels self-absorption. We are so ego driven that perhaps we are no longer able to devote heart and mind, body and soul to anything (let alone to faith in Jesus Christ).

Ponder, for example, the Solidarity movement in Poland. After suffering under great privations for decades under Soviet rule, the workers dedicated their bodies and souls to confront the injustice with a non-violent dedication to Christ. A decade after the Soviet collapse, John Paul II was chastising Poles vigorously for having let their society slip into the amoral ethos of license embraced all over the West. Instead of being a people in solidarity with each other and in Christ, they've been reduced to individuals pre-occupied with their own comfort. Contrary to Mr. Bethell's unfair dismissal, social justice is about belonging to your neighbor and your neighbor belonging to you; it begins by being in relationship with the other -- rather than being absorbed in the self. Our adventure is to act justly with our neighbor, to embrace and love mercy, and to walk with our God with an honest and humble sense of self -- statistics on Church attendance in the West may be interesting, but they don't diminish the adventure in the least.

P Naylor| 6.30.11 @ 3:25PM

Here is something I found in an old book, one published for use by the military in 1941.
Washington’s Prayer for the Nation

Almighty God, we make our earnest prayer that Thou wilt keep the United States in thy holy protection, that Thou wilt incline the heart of the citizens to cultivate a spirit of subordination and obedience to government, and entertain a brotherly affection and love for one another and for their fellow citizens of the United States at large.
And finally that Thou wilt most graciously be pleased to dispose us all to do justice, to love mercy, and to demean ourselves with that charity, humility, and pacific temper of mind which were the characteristics of the Divine Author of our blessed religion, and without an humble imitation of whose example in these things, we can never hope to be a happy nation.
Grant our supplications, we beseech Thee, through Jesus Christ our Lord, Amen.
(Written at Newburg, June 8, 1783, and sent to the Governors of all the States.)

Comments to Pacifism & Bin Laden Killing

Comments to

Pacifism and the Bin Laden Killing

By Alan F.H. Wisdom on 5.16.11 @ 6:07AM

Mark30339| 5.17.11 @ 4:17PM

Christ centered non-violent confrontation is still CONFRONTATION. The first non-violent response to 9/11 should have been a conversion to natural gas fuel and an end to significant US oil imports, thereby collapsing the market that feeds terror. Another would be to intensify exposure of state terror on its own citizens with air-drops of twitter ready devices and wifi band boosts along borders. Another would be firm US support for opposition groups committed to non-violent confrontation via worker strikes, civil disobedience and general non-cooperation. Instead we marched into wars that have led to at least 150,000 deaths so as to compensate for 3,000 killed in America. Americans show no appreciation for the hugely disproportionate pain we caused in reaction to our own pain. It is precisely these kinds of death multipliers that Christ is calling us to stop, for Christ's sake.
Leaders of Christian nations have concluded in the past (and no doubt will continue to conclude in the future) that it is a necessary evil to deploy deadly force to carry out objectives -- and in such events, Christians should see the deployments as a serious human failing, and express regret for the resulting bloodshed -- even if Christians concur on the necessity of the deadly force. Recently, intelligence handed America a trump card for turning the world away from war and toward peace; orders should have been given to take Bin Laden alive AT ALL COSTS and to detain him at Guantanamo for the remainder of his natural life. Instead we proudly announced the use of kill squad tactics that no doubt are to be deployed ever more vigorously by our friends and enemies alike. The seeds we have sewn with this act not only set us back as Christians, they set back all of humanity.

simon templar| 5.17.11 @ 6:09PM

Once in a while someone writes a comment out here that is such a load of ignorant, twisted, pious sounding, inaccurate, propagandistic crap that you really just do not know where to begin. Yours Mark00000 is such.
For the sake and respect for truth I am going to only address two of your statements.
The first:
Recently, intelligence handed America a trump card for turning the world away from war and toward peace; orders should have been given to take Bin Laden alive AT ALL COSTS and to detain him at Guantanamo for the remainder of his natural life.
So, keeping Bin Laden alive would have turned the world to peace? That is beyond sophmoric....perhaps a sign of serious immaturity or perhaps mental illness...definitely intellectual dishonesty.
Second:
Americans show no appreciation for the hugely disproportionate pain we caused in reaction to our own pain.
Really. You were in a coma when for the last century whereby we not only financed out of our treasury the rebuilding, feeding, and clothing of all of Europe through the Marshall Plan of an enemy that really did not deserve a damn dime. The financial investment and aid given to multiple enemie countries and countries in civil war from Vietnam to Korea to Japan just seemed to pass right by you. The millions of refugees from conflicts all over the world welcomed to our shores and taken care of by our nation. The nation rebuilding and financing of Iraq and Afghanistan out of our treasury to the point of bankruptcy. The billions of aid to countries that would soon as spit in our eye if we were in trouble seemed to escape your notice. Yeah, we are SOB's. You are a sick M.F. Guess what abbreviation that is...if you are so ashamed of and hate your country to this level of delusion then I suggest you pack it up and find the utopia you are looking for.
Now, as far as the Christ thing. Please do not use his name or anyone else. It is sickening that you freaking liberal trolls and lefties love to trot out the Christ on these issues while the rest of the week he is sitting in a jar of urine.

Mark30339| 5.19.11 @ 1:19PM

The point of Mr. Wisdom's article is to address Christian "pacifism" and the apparent lack of a pacifist response to the Bin Laden kill squad. Clearly it offends you that I responded on point, so much so that you abandon the profound and gracious dignity embodied by your namesake. Why are you so rattled? I do not expect non-Christians to agree (and you will be shocked to see my May 12 post at http://tinyurl.com/3vtjy4f that partially agrees with you on the Marshall Plan). But let's be very clear, it is you dumping the Gospels -- particularly chapter 5 of Matthew -- into a jar of urine. It is my sincere and good faith wish that your post leads others to see just how disproportionately offensive Americans and America can be.

My Comment to:

Moral men and immoral society and the death of bin Laden

[this is a reply to a 12May2011 post by Mackrimin, his/her post is repeated further below]

Mark30339 12May2011 in reply to Mackrimin

If we are serious about following Christ, then we have to reconcile the government policies we support with the gospels, and particularly with chapter 5 of Matthew. It is odd that you mention post-war Germany and Japan because it was precisely a sense of love of enemy that was a catalyst to their recovery from devastation -- how else do you make peace? I think most would conclude that the Nazi and Japanese menace had to be confronted with force, and a follower of Christ would confess this path to still be a human failing in terms of what we are called to do. But God does not abandon and opportunities to embrace love of enemy continued to arise and a lasting peace with Germany and Japan was established.


Pope John Paul II watched the slaughter of his people with their armed uprising against the Nazis in 1944 and then fell under the Iron Curtain for 45 years. Under your theory, the West should have confronted the Soviets with force and put nuclear armageddon in play (which JFK actually and perhaps foolishly did with Cuba). But with Poland (under your calculus) the IMPOSSIBLE happened: a bloodless defeat of the entire Soviet Union was accomplished through a focused commitment to non-violent confrontation forged over 45 years of many evils endured.


The kill squad hit on Bin Laden and his companions was a shocking lost opportunity to begin closing the book on the War on Terror and to show America as a powerful country able to restrain its vengeance in order to embody how supremely important life is. Bin Laden should have been taken alive at all costs. This is not because Bin Laden deserved it, this is because a super-power can rise above the values of its enemies and prove it stands for something better.

[Mackrimin

Otherwise, for me, being a German, I have no argument. I have only the

most primitive of arguments and that is that a state under no

circumstances must be entitled to kill anyone off, for any reason,

period. You had tens of thousands of cases of capital punishment under

the Nazis, you had a systematic program for exterminating

schizophrenics in the euthanasia program, and you had a

state-sponsored, organized, monumental crime in the Holocaust, killing

6 million people. Language doesn't have an adequate word to describe

this monstrosity. For me, there's no debate. However, America has not

had this experience. And I'm a guest in your country. If I were a

voting citizen, I probably would have a more combative attitude.

Yes... And if that fine principle had been followed, then Nazis had won World War 2. After all, they were stopped by various states _killing_ enough of them that the rest surrendered. The Holocaust was not stopped by moral arguments or love, it was stopped by indiscriminate use of even more brutal violence against the perpetrators. And the Japanese Empire - which was every bit as nasty bunch of murderous thugs as the Nazis, which nobody seems to care of, presumably because their victims were Asians rather than Europeans - was finally forced to surrender through nuclear war.


And it worked: both Germany and Japan are peaceful and productive nowadays. As your quote shows, they have been conditioned to associate reverting back to type with an epic asskicking. That's why we have Germany and Japan rather than Nazi Germany and Japanese Empire nowadays.


Nonviolence worked for Gandhi because the British were decent people who didn't just kill him. The Jews also tried it, and were murdered, for the Nazis were not decent people. There's a lesson there.


Mind you, killing _is_ an extreme method only justified in extreme circumstances, and Osama's execution may or may not have been one - we don't have enough information to judge. However, the claim that the state can never do so in _any_ circumstances is absurd. States exist, first and foremost, to protect their members, and sometimes that means killing evildoers. To deny them the right to do so in any circumstances means sacrificing an unlimited number of your fellow citizens at the altar of
your principles - and then what's the difference between you and Osama?]