Sunday, February 28, 2010

To Be or Not to Be

[This was my comment to HotAir's post: A Prayer from the Living World . The post addresses the Andrew Koenig death. My text is an attempt to acknowledge the point of view of many commenters there who acknowledge or imply their own struggle with depression, some are repeated further below.]


This is a remarkable post and thread. While nicely written, I would agree with commenters that Dr. Z’s post speaks more to the bystanders than to the participants in suicide. It’s rather counterproductive to tell suicide candidates about the hole they will leave in the lives of loved ones. Think about it, piling on more guilt with the promise of giving bystanders a hole of suffering that might communicate a glimpse of the candidate’s suffering — this is not helpful. And while Dr. Z does speak eloquently for the loved ones that remain, he does not say nearly enough about summoning the Grace to soldier on.
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“To be, or not to be” is a profound question, and there is honor in having the courage to pose the question. What follows though, can be a slippery slope of accelerating self absorption; it is filled with dark forces of constant and detailed and cascading self condemnation — and these forces welcome your increasing despair with a growing encouragement to one day strike back at the paralysis with a single act boldly ending it all. The mind is so twisted at this point that loving gestures and counsel from loved ones become profound in their seeming meaninglessness.
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Vitamins, supplements, exercise and drugs are aids, but they do not replace the thing that only the candidate can supply: the conviction that their life belongs to something bigger than themselves — this is the thing the dark forces have been eroding away with incessant inner voices saying: You Fool! You Idiot! You Worthless Chump!
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Ah but these voices don’t have to be the last word. They decline in strength and frequency with a simple thing: a short reply. “Thank you for reminding me of things I need to work on” or “I hear you, I thank you, I forgive you.” The dark voices will persist, but persistence in giving the reply is a slow but steady way back, if one wants to be moving back. I suggest that you do come back to nobly convey your journal of sufferings endured, and to keep those experiences for building bridges to others, maybe in song or in poetry or in stories or just in conversation. Honor us by affirming that we really aren’t alone – we can’t be if you’ve chosen to be with us.
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And for those who did not find their way back, our love for you remains as noble as ever. We accept that you were lost in the wilderness. We can’t bring you back, but we can let you go knowing we love you, and trusting that our love reaches you and comforts you.

Mark30339 on February 28, 2010 at 10:05 AM

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Beautiful, Doc. Thank you for sharing something so profound and so personal.

I’ve struggled with depression and am still climbing my way out. This passage from my favorite novel (The Man Who Was Thursday, by G.K. Chesterton) has helped me understand a little better the importance of what seems like senseless suffering:

“You!” he cried. “You never hated because you never lived. I know what you are all of you, from first to last–you are the people in power! You are the police–the great fat, smiling men in blue and buttons! You are the Law, and you have never been broken. …I curse you for being safe! You sit in your chairs of stone, and have never come down from them. You are the seven angels of heaven, and you have had no troubles. Oh, I could forgive you everything, you that rule all mankind, if I could feel for once that you had suffered for one hour a real agony such as I–”

Syme sprang to his feet, shaking from head to foot.

“I see everything,” he cried, “everything that there is. Why does each thing on the earth war against each other thing? Why does each small thing in the world have to fight against the world itself? Why does a fly have to fight the whole universe? Why does a dandelion have to fight the whole universe? … So that each thing that obeys law may have the glory and isolation of the anarchist. So that each man fighting for order may be as brave and good a man as the dynamiter. So that the real lie of Satan may be flung back in the face of this blasphemer, so that by tears and torture we may earn the right to say to this man, ‘You lie!’ No agonies can be too great to buy the right to say to this accuser, ‘We also have suffered.’”

Rosmerta on February 26, 2010 at 11:44 PM

[It is a dark force that beckons our self-ending, and it is a mighty and noble act to endure the suffering and deny the self-ending.]

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No offense, but this won’t help. And it might hurt. Depressed people aren’t logical. They aren’t open to new things. They aren’t interested in being cheered up. You can’t cheer them up. It’s chemicals in their brains. Unless you’ve taken drugs that affect those chemicals, you really can’t comprehend how much you are controlled by them.

misterpeasea on February 26, 2010 at 10:08 PM

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Just wondering how many commenters suffer from clinical depression or manic-depression?

Pretty easy to tell. The ones getting all weepy about how powerful and helpful the post is to depressed people? Don’t suffer. They think that because they’ve been sad, they understand depression.

misterpeasea on February 26, 2010 at 11:55 PM

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Also, thank you to Misterpeasea and to Lourdes. Although I appreciate the sentiment behind Dr. Zero’s post, it may or may not be helpful to those who are experiencing circumstantial depression. For those who suffer from clinical depression, Dr. Zero’s piece could be a sharp shove at the precipice of a high cliff. A recognition of the difference at the outset of the piece would have helped.

Eyas on February 26, 2010 at 11:59 PM

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I’m sure Doctor Zero has good intentions. But the effects are ambivalent at best. And so all you well-intentioned folks who are going to forward this in email or pass it around. You know what? Don’t. You have no idea what the effect will be.

misterpeasea on February 27, 2010 at 12:08 AM

Well — You have never have any idea what the effect will be, regardless of anything you try with a suicidal person.

But if someone you know is suicidal, you just have to make some effort to help. Doing something, rather than not daring to do something to help someone else is key.

Doc’s whole essay might not help in many cases. But to express one or two dignified, humble, or humane sentiments like some of the ones in this essay — and avoiding overcomplicating — might well open a window for a deeply depressed friend or relative.

Just from my own personal experience, I have found, what works in helping to walk-back a person away from a precipice is to be simply present; be available to listen; be kind; show whatever quiet strength and dignity you may be able; take your own ego out of the picture if possible in case the suicidal person becomes angry or provocative; and just take the suicidal person seriously.

Perhaps shine a light with one or two of Doc’s beautiful things if the circumstance is good for it.


Edouard on February 27, 2010 at 1:26 AM

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Suicide is probably the single most selfish act anyone can pull off.

I’m sorry if you don’t like how that sounds, but it’s true.

uknowmorethanme on February 27, 2010 at 11:19 AM

I agree.
My grandfather committed suicide w/ a gun.
It was 3 yrs later that we found out he didn’t die of a heart attack (crazy family).
I have always felt cheated as a grandchild that he took this way out-I was 14yo.
I would have loved to have known him.


Badger40 on February 27, 2010 at 12:03 PM

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Sad for the Osmonds and the Koenigs.
Those poor bewildered children.

elclynn on February 27, 2010 at 6:24 PM

When the wealthy commit suicide, I always think of this old classic:

Whenever Richard Cory went down town,
We people on the pavement looked at him:
He was a gentleman from sole to crown,
Clean-favoured and imperially slim.

And he was always quietly arrayed,
And he was always human when he talked;
But still he fluttered pulses when he said,
“Good Morning!” and he glittered when he walked.

And he was rich, yes, richer than a king,
And admirably schooled in every grace:
In fine — we thought that he was everything
To make us wish that we were in his place.

So on we worked and waited for the light,
And went without the meat and cursed the bread,
And Richard Cory, one calm summer night,
Went home and put a bullet in his head.

Edwin Arlington Robinson


Disturb the Universe on February 27, 2010 at 6:29 PM

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http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20347551,00.html

Unfortunate! Marie Osmond’s son jumped to death, left a suicide note. Severely depressed, never felt he fit in.

I have many demons to battle, and many crosses to carry. Been battling depression since I was a teenager, but after the major blow of my mom’s death of breast cancer 13 years ago and moving here, it’s a daily sacrifice to keep going. My mom has missed every single significant moment in my life, after high school and starting college. 3 1/2 years of hell.

So I am on meds. Been in and out of therapy. Now to top it off, in came epilepsy! I can only do one thing at a time most of the time because seizure meds mess with memory, I can’t work to put my BA to good use and I am sick and tired of being asked if I want to harm myself or anybody else.

I need to point out there’s an indirect correlation between antidepressants and seizures. Check it out. If it wasn’t because Mr. PPF is short of being canonized in Rome for putting up with me and the kids, I dunno where I’d be.

I almost died three years ago of TSS and sometimes wonder why I didn’t just die. Funny thing, was on the phone y’day with my BFF and I went over some of it since she’s in PR and I am here; she didn’t know I almost died. She has a very quick wit and pulls jokes faster than anybody I have ever known. She told me in Spanish, “yerba mala nunca muere!”, which means “bad herbs never die!”

I laughed so hard because I labeled it as my cause of living. “That’s IT! That’s why I am not dead, that’s IT! Thank you so much for pointing that out!”.

I read this article early in the PM and I was hesitant to opine on it because it hits me. Of course, I am numb most of the time; I tried quitting the antidepressants because I was not having any meltdowns or issues to deal with and it backfired BIG TIME.

I guess I am in the bunch where my brain just needs the drugs. Apparently when weaning from them it’s just as hard as with cigarrettes, only worse b/c for a period of time people with depression are just worse so I caution this to anybody that attempts to wean, or go cold turkey as some people do.

Natural supplements do help a lot, esp. B-12, calcium, magnesium, fish oil, vitamin D and anything that helps the nervous system. Some improve with diet changes too, so I have turned to Catholicism, FOX News and HotAir. ;D

I don’t consider suicide a selfish thing to do. That’s what people on the outside of the scope think. It’s a moment that comes either planned or on impulse, and it’s worse if people around are very judgmental.

I call it lack of strength, a dark vacuum and a mental voice to just do it, go for it, nobody will care, life’s not worth living, yaddah yaddah yaddah. And they’re not grounded and do not comprehend the magnitude of their actions. Hey it’s not an Xbox game where you die and come back to life. You’re gone and not gonna come back!

Call it self-abortion if you like. God created you, had a plan, your life ahead of you with free will but under His guidance your path will be straight. Go off the path onto a weak branch of that tree, it will take a LOT to get you back on track. If I fall off the tree like an apple, I will not get to heaven, which I wanna do-and of course, the ripple effect to my families and friends would be insane. That is what those on the extreme CANNOT SEE OR FEEL. Get it?

I feel for Marie Osmond, she’s so wonderful, perky and has inspired me in many levels, besides having such a talented family. Michael will be missed.


ProudPalinFan on February 27, 2010 at 9:22 PM

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So anyways, when I woke up in the ICU, my father and my fiance were at my bedside. The first thing my father’s all pissed off and the first words out of his mouth were “I hope you know what a selfish thing you tried to do.”

Still groggy, my response was, “No shit, Sherlock.”

The only thing more selfish than committing suicide is telling a suicidal person what a selfish prick he’s being by not thinking about how YOU would feel.

And on that note, I’d just like to say that I do deeply appreciate Dr. Zero’s words, and I take them in the spirit in which they were written. But, as for those who have never suffered from CLINICAL Depression and yet think you have an educated opinion on it: Fuck all y’all, you know shit.

(xcept you, beachgirl, you’re beautiful)


Eyas on February 28, 2010 at 7:03 AM

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